With Anonymous' suggestion that we look into the Bishop's Campaign for Human Development and the remarks by Katie and Jim, I decided to open up an opportunity for discussion.
I realize this is a hot-button issue, so please be respectful with your remarks. I don't delete anything unless it is tasteless or attacking specific people.
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32 comments:
I don't contribute to it. It seems to have been hijacked years ago by those within the Church that for some reason want to stress "peace and social justice" at the expense of orthodoxy. It's a false dichotomy and when pursued leads to nothing good like support of ACORN, abortion, contraception.
Being we have started a new thread, I will repost my reply to Katie.
Sorry Katie, I resent the reference about Fox news, considering they are the only news agency uncovering the deplorable antics of organizations like Acorn and investigating the background of some of our president's advisors. Please take note I would say that regardless of who served in the presidency. I will not place my head in the sand not when it comes to my country and certainly not when it pertains to my faith. If someone presents to me facts,and it is accompanied by videos, transcripts and audios I would be a fool not to accept it as solid documentation. I can and will not dismiss solid evidence because people have chosen to dismiss its source. Facts are facts, which leads me to the video in question. May I suggest you view this video in it entirety and visit its web site before you dismiss it contents as inaccurate or misleading. There in no reasonable argument for our Bishops to be entertaining giving contributions to any of these organizations and entertain they did. I am grateful for whoever uncovered this information and pray they continue to investigate before we find ourselves amidst another crippling scandal. It is time for our Bishops to represent the tenants of our Church in its entirety. Grants should not be given to any institution which is contrary to church teachings. Make no mistake the USCCB is entering into a direction they have no business, they should stay within the bounds of church teaching and render to the government what is the government and to God what is God.
Say what you will, I believe the courageous people who uncovered this information of funding being directed to prostitution, homosexuality etc did not do this flippantly. Remember the truth is the truth and in this country many lawyers exist who would take on the task of proving false statements and accusations in a court of law. Would you like to wager no one will dispute these facts? Now, my next question will the Bishops? So far the silence is deafening!
after viewing the video.I will give NO money to the bishops.They are bringing this on themselves. You can not be proabortion and still be catholic.There is no justification for the destruction of innocent life. I too wish these boys would stick to strengthening the church and staying loyal to the Holy Father. The bishops have lost the respest and teaching authority for the people in the pew. This in exchange for what political correctness.Someday they will regret the day they decided politics was more important then G-d
Here are a few links which discuss the funding from CCHD.
http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=97845
http://bellarmineveritasministry.org/
http://insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6919&Itemid=80
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/sep/09092205.html
This is a Catholic version of Fox noise ("news") tactics. This type of demagoguery only results in a bunch of misinformed angry Catholics shouting at their bishops. UNNECESSARY AND UNCHRISTIAN. The USCCB is NOT supporting anti-Catholic pro-abortion organizations. YOU LIE! We do not need a tea-bagging-birther-angry-mob-fox-news version of Catholicism in our Church. Our Holy Catholic faith is better than partisan politics to protect the wealthy and well-connected. Don't be fooled. Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck and Bill O don't care about the unborn any more than the organizations you're so worried about. They spend 99% of their time defending the wealthy and wining about rich people having to pay taxes and less than 1% of their time with the rare mention of the unborn. I guess money talks, while the unborn remain silent. Just ask the health insurance industry. If you want to pick on somebody, go after Fox news for torpedo-ing healthcare reform, not the USCCB. Or are you too blinded by your partisan politics to see the truth?
Miss Beaumont,
You seem to be resorting in the same activity which you denounce by trying to make this an issue about Fox News instead of the issue at hand which is the corruption within the CCHD.
CCHD has a long history of supporting radical groups and outright anti-Catholic causes. Are the Bishops responsible? In so much as they are in charge, the answer is "yes." Simple accountability.
And to be clear, I am not a registered Republican (I have no party), I don't particularly care for either Hannity nor Bill O'Reilly (because they are are Cafeteria Catholics) and I don't listen to Glenn Beck. I don't have cable in my home, so rarely do I even see Fox News. So at least for me, you can forego using any such points if you choose to respond to my assertion regarding CCHD.
And to boot, I oppose the current desire by our federal government to take over the health care system based upon my belief in the Catholic principle of subsidiarity. I would suggest all really concerned Catholics look into this teaching.
Let's take a look at some of the projects and good things that the Campaign for Human Development is about:
http://www.usccb.org/cchd/edshopping.shtml
Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water!
*********
Be careful with your posts. I am FOR discussion; but not for disparaging the messenger.
Katie,
I can no longer discuss this issue with you, after presenting to you facts and links for discussion. you have decided to dismiss facts and proceed on a rant based on nothing but ambiguous and bias emotion. You have dismissed the facts presented as a "teabagger" and "angry?" You obviously can not handle the criticism nor the facts which have been presented before you. So I will refrain from responding to your posts. Maryanna, I appreciate your attempt to show the other side of this argument but the USCCB is not a democracy. It is the body of Christ which quite honestly has no room for these types of errors. Many Catholics contribute to this fund. They have a right to know where these grants are being issued. I can no condone nor accept the CCDH allowing funds to be distributed to groups such as the ones which were mentioned. I will grant you the possibility of human error (?) then these people should be immediately dismissed. Further I need to ask you this question. Do you not find it curious that non of the organizations where money was distributed were pro life? Are you not the least bit curious why this occurred? I am certainly concerned. Sorry, the Bishops have the responsibility to protect the Catholic Faith there is no room nor excuse for contradiction. What makes us Catholic? It is the fact we proclaim the truth handed down to us through the Apostles and tradition. When we receive the Eucharist and say amen we say we believe Lord you are present and we believe what the Church teaches. I repeat there are no excuses and certainly no room for these kind of errors. It is time the Bishops clean house, their own. Decide do you serve Jesus or do you serve the world? Ageless question one we all need to ask ourselves everyday.
Maryanna,
I believe the organization is flawed by nature of it's founding principles and the activities it has pursued counter to Church teaching. This has been a long standing problem. Those who have run CCHD in such an irresponsible (or even diabolical) manner are the ones throwing the baby out with the bathwater by divorcing the Truch of the Church from charity.
Disband it and start anew with orthodox clergy at the helm.
More to mull on.
http://www.capitalresearch.org/pubs/pubs.html?id=701
You cannot apply the standard of U.S. politics to the Catholic Church. I have a hard time believing that the bishops are purposely choosing pro-choice organizations and purposely leaving out pro-life organizations. I also take issue with those tailor the Catholic Church's stance on social justice to meet the needs of their own partisan preferences. Abortion is intrinsically evil and therefore should never occur. Althought the death penalty may not carry the same weight in the spectrum of evil, CAN YOU NAME ONE CASE IN THE U.S. WHERE THE JUSTIFICATION FOR THE DEATH PENALTY WOULD BE ACCEPTABLE IN THE EYES OF OUR HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH? Non-existant. Can you name one aspect of capitalism that does not meet the Church's standards on social justice OR IS CAPITALISM THE ONLY SYSTEM ENDORSED BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH? Can you name ONE current war that has been endorsed by the Holy Catholic Church? DOES THE CURRENT HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN THE U.S. MEET THE CATHOLIC CHURCH'S STANDARDS OF SOCIAL JUSTICE? Instead of being single-issue social-justice Catholics, we need to embrace ALL of the Church's teachings on Social Justice. Just like I have always said that we need to follow ALL of the Church's liturgical rubrics...and yes, that includes Gregorian Chant along with all the bells and smells.
Miss Beaumont,
I think at issue is a wayward Catholic organization that subverting the Church from within. That's the injustice that is being discussed here.
CCHD's abuses has nothing to do with all of the issues you cited nor Fox New nor American Politics (aside from ACORN and other groups on the CCHD dime that have gotten involved in politics.)
Can you name ONE case where someone illegitimately regestered to vote by acorn actually showed up at the polls to vote? There is another side to the ACORN issue if you want to bring that up too. For somebody who supposedly is not partisan, you seem to know the Republican talking points pretty well. Let me guess, Obama wasn't born in the U.S. because he doesn't have a birth certificate. PLEASE stop trying to politicize the USCCB Campaign for Human Development for the sake of scoring political points.
Miss Beaumont,
The only one making this political, is you. I have divulged my political affiliation, which is unregistered. I do not consider my neither Republican nor Democrat as I think they are for the most part peas of the same pod except the Democrat embrace of infanticide (thought the Republicans seem to be inching towards support for abortion as well.
Bishop Morin, chairman of the Bishops’ subcommittee on CCHD said himself ACORN was dumped "because of serious concerns about financial accountability, organizational performance and political partisanship." We can actually go into the details if you would like but I don't think supporting the Catholic Church funding this organization is where you want to go.
The CCHD is broken beyond repair. It needs to ditched in favor a true method of charitable given that is rooted in orthodoxy and respect for the teachings of Christ's Church.
Has anyone heard of the Gamaliel Foundation?
Stu,
I'm glad to hear that you don't favor one political party over the other. I guess we have more in common than I thought. I'm a pro-life, pro-healthcare reform, pro-progressive tax system, pro-peace/anti-war Catholic. If the Gamaliel Foundation is in favor of helping low-income people, then I'm in favor of it. Before we go about criticizing any community organization, we should stop and ask ourselves what WE are doing for the poor and marginalized. By the way, did you all hear about the innocent Texas man executed for arson-murder even though there was no evidence of arson. The Texas governor refused to grant him a stay even though there was overwhelming evidence that an innocent man was about to be executed. He was executed. Not taking into account the unnecessary execution of guilty criminals, what about all the the execution of innocent people? Respect life is respect for life from womb to tomb...not womb to prison cell. With all these unwarranted townhall-style attacks against the USCCB, why not acknowledge their hard work in the realm of Respect Life, instead of falsely accusing them of not promoting pro-life activities.
Here's my question: I believe what has been revealed about the CCHD in many Catholic media outlets are true. I believe there has been an abuse of funds given to these various anti catholic groups. Inspite of what anyone would like to believe I can find no legitimate argument to support what has been done with this money. How come the Bishops are not denying these allegations, how is it they have said nothing? I personally find this chilling.
It very well may be that some congregations, because of their overall ideological leanings, will enthusiastically support partnerships and financial ties to some of these organizations. However, for the sake of transparency, a congregation's membership or association with such groups should be disclosed.
I believe that many of our congregations have acquired ideological profiles and associations. It's an interesting question as to how such an ideological profile interacts with the congregation's Catholic identity. Is it a symbiotic relationship, or does one tend to displace the other over time? Also, how does it affect the priest's understanding of his vocation? Does he see himself as a sacrificing priest, an organizer and presider, a prophet leading his congregation to a new land of social justice, or something different still?
At any rate, I think that knowing such local ideological profiles and associations would help in understanding the overall thrust of the homilies, church environment, and the functioning of the ministries. Deciding how one's Church donations should be used on the political spectrum ought to be an informed decision. It should hopefully be made with reflection, accurate information, and long before a solicitation is made.
Interesting point, Mark.
Also:
It would seem that the Bishops would do well to address the complaints and allegations.
In our day and time, it is not wise to leave these things festering.
I doubt if any explanations or actions other than closing down the CHD will satisfy the majority of the people who have responded to the question on this blog.
However, it is not my hope that this will happen.
Maryanna,
It should be shut down and those administering it should be fired. Doing this will rid the Church of a cancer and then set the ground for the USCCB to perhaps try again but with orthodox people at the helm. Those organizations that benefited from the CCHD that are true charities, and not leftist front groups, should have no problem being sponsored again.
Miss Beaumont,
You state "If the Gamaliel Foundation is in favor of helping low-income people, then I'm in favor of it." Planned Parenthood would say they too are "helping low-income people" so clearly such a qualifier is not enough. Gamaliel, just like ACORN, is another leftist front group that has subverted funding for ostensibly charitable purposes for political ideology. It is simply wrong and it is up to the Bishops to stop it and at least some have ceased collecting for CCHD in their dioceses. And truly, as more people become educated, I suspect many rank and file Catholics will simply pass on contributing to it as well. So in the end, it is the abuse by leftists that are hurting other worthwhile charities sponsored by the CCHD.
As an aside, you describe yourself as a "pro-life, pro-healthcare reform, pro-progressive tax system, pro-peace/anti-war Catholic.' I find this description to be odd. For me, I'm simply "Catholic." No qualifiers needed. But even with that, I do feel the need to address your modifiers.
Pro-Healthcare Reform...I guess you could say I am as well. I believe the Federal Government taking steps to control our healthcare is nothing but folly that in the end will make getting care more difficult. Our President is telling us that he will insure everyone and spend less money. Given the Federal Government's track record in fiscal management,, I say that is simply impossible. If it had actually been that easy to begin with, we would have done it long ago. Further, as we make the Government the sole provider and payer of our healthcare, we will increasingly be subject to them telling us how we must live in order to keep costs down. Then there is our tax dollars that will be spent on things like abortion and contraception which are completely immoral (I know you agree.) No, instead the Catholic Principle of Subsidiarity rejects wholly the concept of the Federal Government running Healthcare. I would direct you to writings by Chesterton, Belloc and Pope Leo XII as a starter in reading this. So yes, I too am for Healthcare Reform given it leads to the bloated and inefficient Federal Government getting out of it.
Pro-progressive tax system...I fail to see how this combines with your religious beliefs. However I personally take issue with such a system because it does nothing more than feed envy and punish those who are successful all while filling the coffers of the Government for their idea of "doing good." And do not take this as a defense of Capitalism. I'm not a capitalist (given my definition) but rather a Distributist. The problems with abuses of Capitalism is that they foment a mentality that supports the heresy of socialism (along with class envy notions of progressive taxes) that aim to replace God with the government. And ultimately that is what many of this grand social programs do. They are immoral as they rob you and I and every other able bodied individual the opportunity to be charitable to our fellow man through our own actions instead of simply letting the government do it.
Pro-peace/anti-war...One can be pro-peace and for war and conflict at times. Certainly if I saw you being harmed by an evildoer, in the interest of peace and justice I would stop the assailant and even use deadly force if necessary. As Catholics, we aren't against war outright, but rather against unjust wars.
Are we alike in some ways Miss Beaumont as you remarked? Perhaps. I have no doubt you love Jesus and love the Church. And that certainly is a great start. But I do reject some of your notions, as I UNDERSTAND presented here.
Some reading I would recommend...
http://distributism.blogspot.com/2009/08/chapter-xix-building-ownership-society.html
http://distributism.blogspot.com/2009/08/will-real-subsdiarity-please-stand-up.html
I would also highly recommend the books by Dr. John Senior...
The Death of Christian Culture
and
The Restoration of Christian Culture
both published locally.
http://www.ihspress.com/pics/senior.pdf
The Pope's words to the new US ambassador to the Vatican seem somewhat germane to this conversation.
"Here I think particularly of the need for a clear discernment with regard to issues touching the protection of human dignity and respect for the inalienable right to life from the moment of conception to natural death, as well as the protection of the right to conscientious objection on the part of health care workers, and indeed all citizens. The Church insists on the unbreakable link between an ethics of life and every other aspect of social ethics, for she is convinced that, in the prophetic words of the late Pope John Paul II, "a society lacks solid foundations when, on the one hand, it asserts values such as the dignity of the person, justice and peace, but then, on the other hand, radically acts to the contrary by allowing or tolerating a variety of ways in which human life is devalued and violated, especially where it is weak or marginalized" (Evangelium Vitae, 93; cf. Caritas in Veritate, 15)"
The overriding issue here with CCHD and many of the so-called "peace and social justice" Catholics is that they have abandoned the protection of the unborn and justified it by pointing out other injustices instead as some sort of excuse for supporting a group that ostensibly "helps the poor" but supports infanticide. The last two Pope, and the Church for that matter, is clear that such a course of action is impossible. As Catholics we can't support those in any way who allow abortion, the most horrible attack upon human dignity, and then try to take the high moral ground with them on other issues regarding life. It just won't work.
Katie:
You wrote:
"Before we go about criticizing any community organization, we should stop and ask ourselves what WE are doing for the poor and marginalized."
Phrasing an issue this way may shut down a conversation with a veiled accusation. But perhaps it was nothing more than a turn of the phrase.
The issue is not that we abandon our efforts to help the poor and the marginalized - we are all under a commandment to love our neighbors. We sin when we abandon them. The question is how to do this in the most compassionate and effective way - with our hearts and minds fully engaged.
In the past few decades, in their commendable efforts to help the poor, some of the congregations in our Diocese have partnered with certain groups outside of our Church. The question here is whether the ideological character of such groups can coexist with our Catholic identity? To put it plainly, can an association with a group based on Saul Alinsky's Industrial Areas Foundation model have an effect on the Catholic identity of such a parish? Is the effect here neutral, negative, or positive? Since such associations exist, I think we should also know the answer to this question.
I'm sorry, Madrid, but I couldn't allow that on my blog.
Standing Maryanna:
Regarding Madrid's post:
It was a link to, in my opinion, a well done, if a little cheeky, satire on the health care debate. While the progressive proscriptions for health care reform were on the receiving end, this satire was in good taste by any objective standard.
Since you decided to remove his post, perhaps you could also clarify your rules that Madrid's post violated.
Yes, Maryanna, please I would most certainly like an explanation why the post was removed. Catholicvote is after all Catholic and supports the teachings of the church. Are we selectively picking and choosing what can and cannot be said on this blog. The content of Catholic vote does not insult nor degrade any poster but gives their opinion on various topics which represent many Catholics. I will respectively wait for your response,I am certain you must have a legitimate reason other then you do not agree with the content. That would be so unlike you to remove a post due to a differences of opinion.
I didn't see any post; however, I find it interesting that some of you are in opposition to the Church's position on healthcare. In order for there to be an honest and intelligent discussion on healthcare reform, you're going to have to be willing to stop listening to lies. There is no abortion funding in President Obama's plan; to say otherwise is a FLAT OUT LIE. Secondly, as a Catholic, how could any Catholic be opposed to giving access to healthcare to legal or illegal immigrants? We are ALL human beings no matter where our place of birth! I refuse to accept dishonest tactics from political parties. On a political side note to all the political junkies, a good litmus test to see if you're blinded by your own politics would be....if Bush were President and won the bid for the 2016 olympics, would that be good? Is it good that Obama did not win the bid for the 2016 olympics? If the same thing is desired for one politician but not desired for the other, your partisan stubborness scews your views. Back to social justice: I want our President to succeed in all areas of social justice and I find it sad that some Catholics are opposing EVEN THE GOOD policies of our President! To all the anti-obama bloggers, IS THERE ANY IDEA OR PROPOSAL OF OUR PRESIDENT THAT YOU SUPPORT???
Mark, the subject under discussion is the Campaign for Human Development, not health care reform.
Though the clip was way too "cheeky" for me, I might have allowed it under a discussion of health care reform. However, I won't open that can of worms for any reason on this blog. That discussion belongs on a political blog.
I am not angry at Madrid at all and I hope he doesn't feel any anger toward me. You surely must grant that I have allowed difference of opinion even when I do not agree with the blogger.
I think this is the first time I have ever deleted a post for content. I think I deleted one of a double post early on...
I also ask that you do not continue with posts on health care reform.
If you have other suggestions for a new thread, let me know...
Standing Maryanna:
CCHD, its reported associations with various progressive groups (ACORN, Gamaliel Foundation and its subsidiaries, etc), and the health care debate, are all interrelated subjects - the entire question resembles one seamless garment, to borrow a phrase.
It will be very difficult to say anything of substance about CCHD, without also having the discussion touch on the issues CCHD is promoting with its associates - health care reform among them. It would be like trying to discuss the Vietnam War and avoid mentioning Presidents Nixon, Johnson, and Kennedy.
Okay Mark, I am willing to back down. :)
But I hate issues like the present health care debate. It is so divisive for the People of God.
But I'm willing to give it a try. I hope my fellow bloggers will keep this discussion on a civilized level as you all have done on the other issues and please respect Catholics who disagree with you.
I will set up a specific article you can comment on.
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