Monday, January 31, 2011

Redemptorist Parishes - what will happen?

Kneeling Nick ask this question:

Is anyone out there from the Redemptorist parishes in Tidewater? What will happen when the Redemptorists priests leave? The diocese can't cover the parishes it already has.

17 comments:

Anonymous said...

Is it true that a year or two after Summorum Pontificum that 1 out of every 5 churches in our neighboring diocese, Arlington, is offering the Extraordinary Form of the Mass (aka Traditional Latin Mass). What's the hold up in the Richmond Diocese? Is this the diocese of NO CHANGE?....when it comes to current events in the liturgy with respect to the reform of the reform...is it time for us to start treating our bishop and his insiders the same way the people of Egypt are treating Mubarak?

Anonymous said...

Preach on brother. What do you propose?

Anonymous said...

Fr. Thomas Eutenuer a hero of the Catholic Right has confessed to violations of chastity. Just one more example of how the completely unatural vow of lifelong celibacy is destroying many fruitful ministries. This guy is a committed pro-life warrior. Why is it a problem that he likes women? Let him pursue an honorable relationship with a woman and continue his ministry. The lifelong vow of celibacy simply makes most priests hypocrites and liars. It's time to end it.

Stu said...

The comment by Anon 4:08 is simply off the mark.

From the start to call Father Eutenuer, "hero of the Catholic Right" starts immediately with a false paradigm of their being a "Left" or "Right" within Catholicism. One is either Catholic in their beliefs or they are not. One either believes in the Real Presence or they do not. One either accepts that abortion is intrinsically evil in all cases or they do not. One either believes and subscribes in the Magisterium of the Church or they do not. Again, one is either Catholic or they are not. Besides, this is the same Father Eutenuer who chastised on air Sean Hannity for his "Cafeteria Catholicism" just as he certainly would Nancy Pelosi.

As to Father Eutenuer's troubles, to simply assert that his being allowed to marry would have avoided this sin not only denies the very real Grace that God give us but it is also misogynistic. Scripture is very clear that some are called to celibacy. The Church affirms this in the discipline for priests just as it affirms the need for chastity for all persons according to their vocation in life. God gives us the necessary Grace to remain chaste whether one has accepted the vows of celibacy, is single or has married. The very fact that married men succumb to adultery is proof that celibacy isn't the cause. Just as bad, such thinking also reduces women to mere sex objects (and men to pure animals) as it implies that if only a man has some women to use, his sexual desires will remain in check. Such thinking is wholly un-Catholic.

Lastly, to use such an event to further some other agenda is wrong. Father Eutenuer is also an exorcist and with that comes very real combat with Satan. That's a tough fight for a priest. What is needed is continual prayer for him and all other priests, not misguided calls for change.

Anonymous said...

Today 5 priests of the Archdiocese of Philadelphia were arrested for abusing minors. How many ruined lives does it take before people like Stu realize that the vow of celibacy does not produce holiness but rather perversity?

Stu said...

If only female high school teacher could marry!

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/crime/female-gym-teacher-accused-of-sex-acts-with-football-players-1072802.html

If only male protestant pastors could marry!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/06/AR2010050605772.html

How many ruined lives does it take before people like "anon 5:57" realize that the vow of celibacy does not produce good female high school gym teachers or male protestant pastors but rather perversity?

(Your whole premise is both unproven and illogical in its assumption.)

Anonymous said...

i don't know what your talking about. everybody knows that abstinence causes pedophelia.

Kneeling Nick said...

No one is arguing that abstinence causes pedophilia. What is being proposed is that people denied the possibility of a loving relationship with a member of the opposite sex are likely to seek out sexual relationships with people of the same sex or with children. Look at our prisons they are rife with homosexual activity. Why? Because most criminals are homosexual? No because when sexual desire is denied its natural end then it is likely to seek an unnatural one. We see this truth illustrated on a daily basis but some folks are so wrapped up in defending the "lifelong celibacy at any price" religion that they have turned their backs on Christianity.

Stu said...

Nick,

Such logic is simply bad and not supported by experience. The very fact the sexual abuse is in all facets of people in comparable percentages (though it is a bit lower among priests) points to another common denominator which is our Fallen Nature.


Similar problem in the Baptist world that doesn't have priestly celibacy. What the driving factor there if it isn't celibacy?

StopBaptistPredators.org

stamding maryanna said...

Pedophilia is a power issue... no matter where you find it...

Kneeling Nick said...

Sorry Stu, but just because you can point to instances of sexual abuse in other professions doen't mean that the requirement of lifelong celibacy doesn't play a role in the sexual misconduct of Catholic clergy. I have already pointed to a real life example, (the prisons) where forced celibacy results in an increase of unnatural sex acts yet you say my logic is bad and not based on experience.

Your contention that Catholic priests abuse at a lower rate than other professions is highly suspect. If this is true then the Catholic Church should suffer far less than other institutions when it comes to the effect of such abuse and yet we see that no less than eight US Catholic dioceses have been forced into bankruptcy by the necessity of paying settlements to victims of sexual abuse. And even many of those not forced into bankruptcy have had to make staggering settlements. The Archdiocese of Los Angeles paid out 600 million a few years ago.
If Stu is right and the problem is EVEN WORSE in other institutions, i.e. private and public schools, hospitals and other churches then the amount of money being paid out to settle sexual abuse claims must be truly mind boggling and hospitals, schools,churches, city and state goverments must be going bankrupt on a regular basis to pay all these claims. I'll leave it to Stu to produce the evidence.

Stu said...

Nick said...Sorry Stu, but just because you can point to instances of sexual abuse in other professions doen't mean that the requirement of lifelong celibacy doesn't play a role in the sexual misconduct of Catholic clergy.
I'm not under the burden to disprove anything. Rather, mine is to provide evidence that counters your purported proof. Fact remains, the problem of such abuse cuts across all strata of people. If your theory is true, then we should see less of such abuse in other demographics. But we don't. Back to you to explain such.

Nick said...I have already pointed to a real life example, (the prisons) where forced celibacy results in an increase of unnatural sex acts yet you say my logic is bad and not based on experience.
No real analyst with any experience would put forth such a statement as proof. It is simply conjecture on your part that neither has true statistical rigor as well as failing to compare like groups in it's claim (priests vs prison inmates). Not only are there demonstrably different makeups in personality type but their environments are also very different. Further, priests who do not wish to live by their vows of celibacy are free to leave the priesthood. Lastly, it doesn't take into account that the overwhelming majority of priests are faithful to their vows.

Nick said...Your contention that Catholic priests abuse at a lower rate than other professions is highly suspect. If this is true then the Catholic Church should suffer far less than other institutions when it comes to the effect of such abuse and yet we see that no less than eight US Catholic dioceses have been forced into bankruptcy by the necessity of paying settlements to victims of sexual abuse. And even many of those not forced into bankruptcy have had to make staggering settlements. The Archdiocese of Los Angeles paid out 600 million a few years ago.
If Stu is right and the problem is EVEN WORSE in other institutions, i.e. private and public schools, hospitals and other churches then the amount of money being paid out to settle sexual abuse claims must be truly mind boggling and hospitals, schools,churches, city and state goverments must be going bankrupt on a regular basis to pay all these claims. I'll leave it to Stu to produce the evidence.

The number of lawsuits is only proof of the number of lawsuits and nothing more. It is not a viable way to measure abuse. Again, any analyst with a bit of experience (of which I count myself) would dismiss such a methodology. Here are some real statistics to ponder.

-Pedophilia (the sexual abuse of a prepubescent child) within the ranks of priest is actually very, very rare (0.3% of the entire population of clergy) The overwhelming majority of sex-abuse scandals by priests were actually ephebophilia which is the homosexual attraction to adolescent boys. However, this amounted to less than 2 percent of the priestly population which is consistent with the rate of married men. This data comes from the books, Pedophiles and Priests: Anatomy of a Contemporary Crisis, written by Professor Philip Jenkins (who actually left the Church prior to the scandal and is now an Episcopalian).

-In 2004, the Department of Education completed a study, Educator Sexual Misconduct:A Synthesis of Existing Literature, and concluded that "nearly 9.6 percent of students are targets of educator sexual misconduct sometime during their school career," further stating, "the physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests."

I can anecdotally this rings true for me. I have never encountered a priest who was accused of abusing children but I can recollect at least two of my high school teacher (one male, one female) that had "encounters" with students that were my peers. One should indeed ask why the Church faces such scrutiny and others do not. I think I know. But that is a different topic.

Fact remains, celibacy has nothing to do with it. Nothing.

Anonymous said...

On the topic of celibacy; It appears many commentators have left out the one operative factor in this discussion: GOD!!! To say celibacy maybe unnatural may have its points,however to practice celibacy one must understand it is SUPERNATURAL discipline only achieved though prayer,the Sacrament and spiritual reading. No where in your thinking of rendering celibacy obsolete have you one factored in the power of the Lord!! Many aspects of a life filled with abandonment and sacrifice can often seem impossible but ALL things are possible with God! Maybe what we truly need is to Trust Him who can do all things!
The clergy is now riddled with many men who are more CEO then priests.When the discipline of prayer stops serious sin begins. Just think about it in terms of your own life. Want to know how celibacy is accomplished? Read the lives of the Saints. That says it all!Then may I suggest some simple restraint and knowledge that celibacy can and is a great offering to the Lord of one's life and the Lord is never outdone in generosity.

Mark said...

To agree that the denial of the sex drive is likely to result in immoral acts, is synonymous with accepting that we are ruled by our drives - in this instance, the sexual drive. This is a dismal and utterly defeatist view of human nature, that makes mockery of the sacrament of confession - why should one confess such things, if they were caused by "uncontrollable" and "socially conditioned" drives? It also makes marriage vows - "forsaking all others" - meaningless.

Additionally, such a confused line of thinking illegitimately absolves such acts, and tends to go on a nonsensical, (but perhaps satisfying) search for scapegoats.

All of us, without exception, are called to a life of chastity. Those select few called by our Lord to the consecrated life, are additionally called to the life of sexual abstinence, humility, and poverty.

We confess our failures, but we don't lower the standards.

Kneeling Nick said...

37 more priests are now under investigation in Philadelphia for sexual abuse of minors. But I guess you guys are right everything is just hunky-dory in celibacy land!

Stu said...

Nick,

You simply aren't showing causation and have failed to address any of the point I have made or references which I provided. Me thinks you simply have an axe to grind given your avoidance of facts.


More from the news on the school front...

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/435113_minister08.

html\\http://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/show_story.php?id=20055

http://blogs.pe.com/news/digest/2011/02/do-not-publish----do-not-publi.html

http://www.10news.com/news/26821732/detail.html

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_west_valley/goodyear/pd%3A-valley-teacher-arrested-for-images-of-child-molestation

Many, many more where those came from.

If only school teachers weren't forced to be celibate then this wouldn't happen!!!!

Mark said...

Kneeling Nick:

I've followed up on this Philadelphia story, and somehow remain unconvinced by the argument that the real culprit here is celibacy. Could you come up with some studies that may support your hypothesis?

Also, think about what you are suggesting: if the culprit really is celibacy, and assuming that the mechanics of the human sex drive are more or less constant, then you also must propose that this problem, with its present magnitude, has existed in every Catholic country for about a millennium. Is there any data that supports this? Or is there a thousand year old, certain novel style, global cover-up?

More seriously, if this problem is specific to a certain time and/or place, then the above cannot hold, and some other mechanism must be in play. Such as carelessly lowered local standards, combined with subsequent ecclesiastical cowardice?

At any rate, I feel that our Church has dealt with this problem in an overly bureaucratic manner, and most Bishops remain unable to speak about it with courage. The net results continue to be deplorable, demoralizing, and scandalous.